艾未未对话于伯公：其因在果

其因在果

访谈人员：艾未未  于伯公

访谈时间：2007.4.5 清明节 阴   

艾：这些作品是在怎样的一段时期,什么时间开始创作的？

于：1996-1999年开始利用丝绸创作，2002-2007制作了一些装置,雕塑,丝绸材料的作品。

艾：整个跨度10年时间,这是你第一个个展吗？

于：第二个个展。

艾：第一个个展在哪？

于：北京古老画廊。

艾：这次展览名称确定了吗？

于：还没确定。

通向本体
装置
发电机、燃油（汽油）、红色染料、玻璃器皿、塑料管、霓虹灯、自行车轮、铁管
尺寸因场地而定
2009

艾：先介绍一下自己,哪年出生的,来北京之前之后？

于：1970年出生在内蒙古苏尼特左旗，上完小学后离开,到东北上学90年高中毕业。92-94年在沈阳工作，95年春天到北京圆明园，在圆明园呆了半年时间后来离开。工作了三四年时间，在这期间做了一些跟丝绸有关的作品，目前作品是装置，雕塑。

艾：你好像没受过专业训练。

于：是的，没受过专业训练。

艾：为什么会做这些事情,怎么想的？

于：上小学就喜欢画画，高中时接触了绘画。后来报考过这方面的学校，考了两年感觉没什么意思,就放弃了。

艾：为什么没什么意思？

于：感觉学校里的教育和我以前想的不太一样。

艾：你以前想的是什么？

于：以前想的艺术是比较自由的。

艾：什么是自由的？

于：自由就是自己内心的想法不受限制。

艾：自己的理由,那你为什么会来北京呢？

于：93年期间常去鲁美听讲座，知道了一些艺术圈里发生的事情。有一些朋友在圆明园，当时就想去圆明园。95年春天到了圆明园，当时画了一些架上作品。在圆明园接触了一些艺术家，接触了一些艺术方面的知识。

艾：我看你的东西涉及很多，非常个人化的兴趣你注视的点，包括制作方式，这些个人理由已经形成了个人的形态。这形态变成了这个世界上的一件东西，尽管都和某种愿望有关。比如说电影院或者一双鞋。这件作品叫什么？

于：两个小魔鬼。

两个小魔鬼
装置
玻璃钢、烤漆
100×70×35cm
2007

艾：两个魔鬼，但看上去一男一女，一雌一雄，包括带有刻度的大粪和一只苍蝇。他们都有非常自我化的材料和制作方式，大多数都是手工完成的, 带有个人语感在里面。这个东西在今天的艺术作品中并不是很常见,我们看到市场上绝大多数作品，都可以看到师承何处或从哪个活动中窜出来的，或者属于哪一片 的或者正往哪里走，在你作品中始终有一个哪也不去或者自我内观的东西。你怎么看待内观的？

于：我认为人的内观，跟自己的性格里的一些因素有关，因为自我性格特征会直接影响你对事物的理解与思考，如果某些你自身比较感兴趣的知识经验积累到一定程度，可能会比较合理，自由地走向完全属于你自己的自我世界。我想艺术需要这些东西来完善。

艾：需要什么？

于：需要自己对内心感兴趣的东西，进一步探索和发现。

艾：在你的作品里很难看到乐观和悲伤，它有一些诙谐成分但是又有某种宗教仪式的暗示，你怎样看待宗教的？

于：我认为宗教是对某种思想的认识，这里包含的因素很多，但是和你自身的理解息息相关。

图为：内蒙古的秋天

艾：为什么息息相关，你能称什么样的经验为宗教性质的经验，在日常生活中有什么样的宗教感受吗？

于：我印象最深的一次，我们几个人去内蒙，当我们深入到很少有人能到达的内陆。见到巍巍起伏的远山，寂静天空和低低的云，相信某种灵性就存在其中，但很模糊只是一种感受。

艾：你对自然景观怎么看，你有很多在野外在自然当中的感观经验吗？

于：有过，我同父亲的朋友去很远的公社，给一个老乡修理家具，他是一个木匠。吃完晚饭后回家，在雪地里走了差不多三四个小时，天上是星星地上是雪，路上只有两个人，那是一次跟自然近距离的接触。

艾：你的父母是什么样的人，能简单说一下吗？

于：我父亲是兽医，专门给动物看病的兽医,我母亲是家庭主妇。

艾：牧场的兽医？

于：是的。

艾：兽医经常有人有求于他了，你见过他行医吗？你见过他把胳膊伸进马的肛门，把里面的阻截的东西掏出来吗？

于：我见过我父亲给马治病，可能是马的内脏着凉了，他用棉布点着了对着马的鼻孔往里熏，马体内的寒气会出来。

艾：会吗？

于：会。

艾：能看见吗？

于：能。

艾：看见什么？

于：看见马的鼻孔滴水。

艾：熏你的话滴的更厉害。

于：有可能。

艾：他们现在还在内蒙？

于：他们都去世了。

艾：你多大他们去世的？

于：我十四岁时我父亲去世了,我十七岁时我母亲去世了。

艾：为什么会去世了？

于：我父亲因为心脏病,我母亲因为车祸。

艾：他们的去世对你有影响吗？

于：有影响，最大的影响感觉很多东西和以前不一样了，比如当时的生活环境。从另一个方面讲并没有那么强烈，感觉自己能承受这些。

艾：十七岁你还没有自立的能力，你的经济怎么办？

于：我父亲单位有生活补助，直到上完高中。

艾：之后呢？

于：我妹妹比较早就工作了，我到外地上班。

艾：工资多少？

于：在沈阳工资500，那时在广告公司做设计，手工画标志和广告牌。

艾：那是哪一年？

于：93年。

艾：那你挺富有的。

于：还行。

艾：到北京以后怎么办？

于：到了北京在圆明园画了半年时间画。

艾：圆明园，那是哪一年？

于：95年。

艾：就是驱散以前,很快就驱散了。

于：很快。

艾：怎么驱散的？

于：当时不让艺术家住,没什么理由。

艾：用什么方法不让住？

于：开始让这些人搬走。

艾：你遇到过吗？

于：我当时已经上班了，身上的钱用光了，找了一份从事摄影方面的工作。

艾：然后你就搬出来了。

于：是的,单位提供住的地方。

艾：那从96年到现在，第一批做了一些跟木头有关的东西，一个一个地说一说。

于：第一批做了一些跟丝绸有关的东西。

刻度大便 Graduated shit
2006
丝绸 silk
25x30x30cm

艾：怎么会选择跟丝绸有关的题材和材料？

于：丝绸有一种温暖，柔软华丽的特质，丝绸又是一种跟中国传统有密切关系的材料。从养蚕到蚕丝到成品丝绸，经历很复杂的过程。利用这种温暖，柔软，华丽光感比较强的材料，制作了一些现实生活中想不到的东西。

艾：什么东西是现实中想不到的呢？

于：比如用丝绸制作了一些大粪。

艾：那不是最现实的东西吗？

于：是的。

艾：那怎么说是现实当中想不到的东西？为什么要这样做呢，为什么是大粪，为什么是苍蝇。这种大粪大概只在内蒙的野地里才能见到。

于：从丝绸到大粪很难会对它们之间产生什么联想，用这种材料制作不被人注意的大粪，材料本身所代表的意义和现实物体之间的内在张力会比较 强。                                                                         

鞋子 shoes
2006
丝绸 silk
10x20x30cm

艾：那鞋子呢？

于：小的时候经常穿军鞋有过去的记忆，用白色丝绸把它们重新制作出来，白色隐含着过去的经典经验。这里面有很多说不清楚的记忆和那一时期的感受。

艾：木头上面黑的是什么？

于：木雕上的喇叭，这件作品是用木头雕了不同植物的果实，把它们制作成音箱。

艾：蓝色的是什么？

于：是用来进行心理测试的沙盘。

艾：为什么有这么一个像土著的架子，上面吊东西吗？

于：不吊东西。

艾：这是一个环境吗？

于：是一个心理测试的环境，在这样的环境里。参与者可以利用道具架子里的道具，在沙盘里进行游戏来完成一次心理测试。

艾：旁边的架子呢？

于：旁边的架子是用来装心理测试的道具，道具包括一个鸡蛋，一个碗，一个佛像，一个沙漏，一个手电筒，一架小飞机，还有其它一些日常化的用品。

内心之帐
装置
松木、沙子、道具
380H×280Rcm
2007

内心之帐 (局部)
装置
松木、沙子、道具
380H×280Rcm
2007

艾：那么你相信这种神秘的象征吗？

于：相信。

艾：你怎么看待暗示？

于：我认为暗示是在某一特定环境里与你的感应相吻合，比如在昏暗的环境里，一支被点燃蜡烛，可能和你的某种心理期待相吻合。

艾：内心的状态实际上通过暗示来表达的时候可能更吻合。

于：可能更真实，这件作品在一个特定环境里完全自我的时空里。通过选择不同的道具符号在沙池里重建自己的内心世界，在这一游戏过程中你内心的真实状态就会展现出来。

艾：游戏总是消解了，重新组合了人的真实的现实世界。游戏都是在一个特定范围内规定语言语境，那你作品在很大程度上，对语言符号，场所做了一个规定。它们在作品中有什么样的位置，比如一个镜子，一个电视，一个音箱，你怎么看符号学上的规定。

于：符号的意义跟某种经验有关，同一符号对某些人的经验可能是完全不一样的。作品中所选取特定符号和特定场所，更侧重我个人的经验。

艾：一个人如果想拥有或建立一个自己的世界的话,是否应该建立自己的符号？

于：我认为是应该的。

艾：如果没有自己的符号，它就不具有自我的世界。

于：我认为是这样的。

艾：那你是一个建立自己世界的人吗？

于：是这样的。

艾：那你的世界将是什么样的？

于：我的感受是自己的符号世界，能让人更直接感受到你的思维指向和线索。

艾：那这里提到第一个思维的指向和线索，第二个别人能感受到这两者同等重要吗？为什么让别人感受到，为什么会有自我的思维指向和线索？

于：我认为自己的符号指向和线索完善起来，别人会感受得到。

艾：有必要让别人感受得到吗？

于：这不一定。

艾：是不是有了形才能称之为符号，没有形之前就不能称之为符号。特定材料放置特定位置，所有符号都具有仪式感，因为它具有身份，它们之间的关系是什么样的？

于：我认为只有在特定环境这些符号的意义才能明确起来。

艾：比过去明确了，或者说它形成了。

于：我理解它需要过程，在这个过程中才能明确起来。

艾：什么是精神思考，精神可以思考吗？

于：可以思考。

艾：思考怎样完成的，你所制作的这些符号语言来完成你的思考，还是由于你制作了这些符号语言以后才激发了你的思考？

于：我的感受是思考是先行的，随着思考的深入作品的基本核心就会确定下来。这一过程往往是反反复复地重新调整，最初想要达到的才能明确起来。

艾：明确起来以后呢？

于：个人的符号就能显现出来。

艾：显现之后呢？

于：你个人的思想，对事物的认识就会形成你自己的线索。

艾：这线索只是为你其它的思想吧？

于：还是为了完成自己对世界的理解。

 艾：我们最终能理解世界吗，还是我们看到的永远都是片段，还是我们本身就是片段？

于：我们本身就是片段。

艾：两个小鬼是从何而来，我喜欢这两个鬼。他们显得精神，又很对抗又不怀恶意，但是又绝不可被忽视，这是从哪来的？

于：两个小鬼正如人性的双重矛盾心理，人都有面对现实的一面和隐藏在现实背后的另一面，它们之间是有区别的。

艾：什么区别？

于：人有善的一面有恶的一面，每个人都无法回避地面对这些。

其因在果

装置
皮毛、石膏、白色石英砂、镜子
90×800×600cm
2005

KARMA

 An Interview Between Ai Weiwei & Yu Bogong

 Date: April 5, 2007  Qingming Festival  Overcast

Ai: When did you start to create these works?

Yu: I started to create with silk from 1996 to 1999 and I have been working on installations, sculptures and silk items from 2002 to 2007.

Ai: So it has already been ten years. Is this your first solo exhibition?

Yu: This is actually my second solo show.

Ai: Where was the first one held?

Yu: At Gulao Gallery in Beijing.

Ai: Have you thought of the title for this show?

Yu: Not yet.

Ai: Could you please introduce yourself first? Things like your year of birth and what you’ve been up to before and after coming to Beijing?

Yu: I was born in 1970 in Sunitezuo Qi (Tribe) of the Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region where I finished primary school education. I then moved to the northeast and, after graduating from senior high school in 1990, I worked in Shenyang from 1992 to 1994. In spring 1995, I went to Yuan Ming Garden, an artists’ village in Beijing, where I stayed for about six months. I was employed again after that for three or four years during which I created some works with silk. My recent works include installations and sculptures.

Ai: So you have never been professionally trained.

Yu: That’s right.

Ai: What prompted you into doing all these? What was on your mind?

Yu: I took to drawing in primary school and I learnt about painting in senior high. I did apply for several art schools but two years later I lost interest in professional training and gave up.

Ai: Why did you lose interest?

Yu: The college education was different from what I had expected.

Ai: What was your expectation?

Yu: I thought art should be more liberal.

Ai: What do you mean by “liberal”?

Yu: By “liberal”, I mean I can feel free to explore art to my heart’s content.

 Ai: So that’s quite a personal concern. Why are you in Beijing?

Yu: I used to go to Luxun Academy of Fine Arts for lectures in 1993. There, I learnt about the art community. I thought of going to Yuan Ming Garden as I had some friends there. So I went there in spring 1995. I did some canvas painting and met many artists there. That’s how I got started with artistic theories.

Ai: Your works have very extensive reach indeed. They demonstrate your special and personal interest and focal points. Your artistic approaches are very unique. Your personal concerns have come together to form a one-of-a-kind personal style in spite of the fact that they all have specific references to certain aspirations, as in the case of The Cinema （Dian Ying Yuan） or A Pair of Shoes （Yi Shuang Xie）. What is the name for this piece?

Yu: “Two Little Devils”（Liang Ge Xiao Mo Gui）

Ai: Yes, indeed. There are two devils, a male and a female. There are also feces with measurement marks and a fly, all made of individualized materials with unique methods. Most of these are handmade, so they also speak a personal language. Your work is rare in today’s art community. We can easily identify the origin for most of the artworks in the market, or at least they fit into an existing genre or go with a particular trend. However, there is always something about your works that fits nowhere or that is exclusively introspective. How do you explain that?

Yu: I believe that introspection concerns one’s characters since individuality directly affects the way you think and comprehend. With a certain amount of knowledge and experience in a particular field of interest, you will be able to think and comprehend appropriately and freely to create a world of your own.

 We need such things in artistic creation. 

Ai: To be more specific, what are the things we need?

Yu: Well, you need to further explore your field of interest.

Ai: Your works are seldom optimistic, nor pessimistic. They are humorous to a certain extent with certain religious allusions. How do you understand religion?

Yu: Religion is really about the perception of a certain school of thoughts. It is inclusive, but is also largely dependent on your own understanding.

Ai: Why is it dependent on your own understanding? What kind of experience, in your view, qualifies as religious experience? Do you have such experience in your daily life?

Yu: The first thing coming into my mind is a trip to Inner Mongolia. In the depth of the untraversed inland, we saw rolling hills, the serene sky and low-lying clouds. We believed that the spirits were somewhere around but that was just a vaguely intuitive feeling.

Ai: How do you view the nature and the sceneries? Have you ever been out in the wilderness frequently?

Yu: I have. Once I went to a remote commune with a friend of my father’s, who is a carpenter and who was on a mission to repair furniture for a local. After supper, we walked home on a stretch of snow for about three or four hours. There were stars in the sky and snow on the ground and the two of us were the only people out on the road. We felt so close to nature.

Ai: Could you give a brief account of your parents?

Yu: My father is a vet, who treats ailing animals, and my mother is a housewife.

Ai: A vet on the farm?

Yu: That’s right.

Ai: A vet is frequently called upon. Have you ever seen him work on a house call? Did he work his arm into a horse’s anus and unclog the passage?

Yu: I have actually seen my father treating a horse, which was suffering from a cold. My father lit up a piece of cotton cloth and sent the smoke into the horse’s nostrils to drive away the cold.

Ai: Did it work?

Yu: Yes, it certainly did.

Ai: Did you actually see it?

Yu: Yes, I did.

Ai: What did you see?

Yu: I saw water droplets hanging from the horse’s nostrils.

Ai: I guess it will be more effective on a human.

Yu: Probably.

Ai: Are your parents still in living Inner Mongolia?

Yu: They both passed away.

Ai: How old were you when your parents passed away?

Yu: I was fourteen when my father died and my mother died three years later.

Ai: How did they happen?

Yu: My father died of heart attack and my mother was killed in a car accident.

Ai: It must have been hard.

Yu: It was. Many things changed, including the environment I live in. On the other hand, I took the changes surprisingly well as I somehow believed that I could make it through.

Ai: You wouldn’t be able to make a living on you own at seventeen. What did you live on?

Yu: I received an allowance from my father’s former employer until I completed my senior high study.

Ai: What happened after that?

Yu: My little sister was already working and I also left town for work. 

Ai: How much were you paid at that time?

Yu: In Shenyang, I designed signs and billboards for an advertisement company and I was paid RMB 500 a month.

Ai： When was it?

Yu: It was in 1993.

Ai: Well, that’s a pretty good salary for 1993. 

Yu: It was not bad.

Ai: What did you do after coming to Beijing?

Yu: I spent six months painting in Yuan Ming Garden.

Ai: When was that?

Yu: It was in 1995.

Ai: So that was shortly before the local government started to drive away all artists there.

Yu: Exactly.

Ai: How did it happen?

Yu: Somehow the artists were no longer allowed to live there.

Ai: How was the order enforced?

Yu: The artists were simply asked to move away.

Ai: Did it happen to you?

Yu: No. I already left because I had run out of money and took up a job in photography.

Ai: So you moved out of Yuan Ming Garden.

Yu: Yes, the employer provided housing.

Ai: You started to work with wood in 1996. Could you describe your early works one by one?

Yu: Actually I worked with silk first.

Ai: Why did you choose silk?

Yu: Silk is warm, soft and gorgeous. There is always a special bound between silk and the Chinese tradition. From raising silkworms all the way to the finished products, the production of silk is very complicated. I created something unimaginable in real life using this warm, soft and gorgeous material.

Ai: What is unimaginable in real life?

Yu: For example, feces made of silk.

 Ai: Isn’t it one of the most common things in reality?

Yu: It is.

Ai: But you said that you created something unimaginable in reality. Why did you choose feces and fly? I guess such feces can only be found in the wilderness of Inner Mongolia.

Yu: What I mean by “unimaginable” is that people seldom think of silk and feces as related in real-life. The contrast between the meaning carried by the material and the real-life object is simply overwhelming.                                                                   

Ai: What about the shoes?

Yu: Military footwear bears a memory of my childhood. I have re-created these shoes with white silk. The color indicates the history of the shoes as a classic experience mixed with unspeakable memories and feelings in those days.

Ai: How about that wooden sculpture with a black top?

Yu: They are speakers on the sculpture. I carved different types of fruits out of wood and turned them into loudspeakers.

Ai: And the blue one?

Yu: That’s a sandbox for psychological test.

Ai: Why is there an aboriginal shelf? Is it for hanging things?

Yu: Not really.

Ai: Is this supposed to be a setting?

Yu: It is a setting for psychological test in which the participants are allowed to make use of the properties on the shelf in a game of sandplay.

Ai: What is the nearby shelf for?

Yu: This is where you store the properties needed for the psychological test, including an egg, a bowl, a figure of Buddha, a sandglass, a flashlight, a small plane along with other daily articles.

Ai: Do you believe in such mysterious symbols?

Yu: Yes, I do.

Ai: What do you think of allusion?

Yu: An allusion coincides with your feelings in a given context. For example, a burning candle in a dim surrounding may be indicative of certain anticipation.

Ai: It may be more appropriate to showcase your inner world by allusions.

Yu: That’s right. When put in a give context, namely an exclusive time/space, this piece of work enables the participants to reproduce their inner world with a variety of properties and signs. The entire process helps demonstrate one’s psychological reality.

Ai: Games are always a real world that is disseminated and then pieced together. Games provide a contextual language. There is substantially a set rule in your work governing the usage of language signs and all the items (such as a mirror, a TV set or a loud speaker) as well as their respective positions in the setting. I’d like to have your view concerning the semiological rules. 

Yu: The meaning carried by a sign is related to certain experience. The same sign may be interpreted differently by people with different experience. The signs and positions defined in this work are mainly based on my personal experience.

Ai: Is it necessary to develop your own semiological system if you want to have or build up a world of your own?

Yu: I think so.

Ai: Without personal signs, there won’t be an exclusively owned world with an ego.

Yu: That’s right.

Ai: Are you building your own world?

Yu: Yes, I am.

Ai: What kind of world is it?

Yu: I feel that it is a world of personal signs which explains the “directivity” of your thoughts and provides “clues” in a more direct way.

Ai: Talking about the directivity and the clues, are they considered equally important? Why is it necessary to explain the directivity of thoughts and provide clues? How do directivity and the clues come into being?

Yu: I believe that the directivity and the clues of one person, if further improved, can be felt by others.

Ai: It is necessary for them to be felt?

Yu: It depends.

Ai: Do you think a sign must take a concrete form? A special element should take a special position. All signs should be part of a ritual because they each have an identity. What is the relationship between the signs?

Yu: I believe that only in a given context will these signs be expressively meaningful.

Ai: They become more established than before, or they have taken shape.

Yu: I understand that there has to be a process for the signs to be more established.

Ai: What is “thinking of soul”? Is the soul able to do any thinking? 

Yu: Yes, of course. 

Ai: How does a process of thinking conclude? Do you create the sign language to complete your thinking or do you make them to inspire your thinking?

Yu: I personally feel that thinking happens at the earliest stage. In the process of thinking, and through repeated adjustments, the gist of any piece of work is finalized and you become more certain of what you want to achieve in the first place.

Ai: What happens after that?

Yu: The individual signs may surface. 

Ai: And what comes next?

Yu: Your own thinking and perception will form your own clues.

Ai: These clues only again lead to other thoughts, don’t they?

Yu: But they also lead to the consummation of your perception of the world.

Ai: Will such consummation ever be within our reach? Are we just seeing the segments of the entirety or are we segments ourselves?

Yu: We are the segments.

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